The Great Hunt (Wheel of Time Book 2) | A Lore Avalanche and One Extremely Sad Soldier

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered... and Lee shall spend three and a half weeks reading a 700-page book that Lance considers a footnote.

In Episode Two of The Sibling Sidequest, we dig into The Great Hunt, Book Two of The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. The Horn of Valere has been stolen, the Seanchan have arrived and they brought collars, Rand is still deeply opposed to being the Dragon Reborn, and Robert Jordan has apparently decided it's time to introduce every faction, magic system, and political structure he's been sitting on.

We talk about the tonal whiplash between Books One and Two, why the portal stone chapter is genuinely one of the coolest things in this series, and why the Ingtar reveal felt like a sucker punch to the heart. We also discuss the Egwene storyline, which was upsetting in exactly the ways it was supposed to be, and the Nynaeve/Lan romance, which...seriously??

Also: Mat is still on thin ice, Min deserves everything good in this world, and Padan Fain has become a whole separate problem and we love him for it.

This is a spoiler-heavy discussion of The Great Hunt, but we only spoil up to Book Two. If you're looking for a Wheel of Time podcast with strong opinions and questionable reading habits, welcome back to the sidequest.

Transcript

Intro 0:00

This is the sibling side quest. One eldest daughter, one little brother, and a lot of strong opinions. They're diving deep into iconic fantasy series, one book at a time, and spoiling everything along the way. Will Lee finish a series for once in her life? Let's find out.

Lee 0:33

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the shadow shall lie across the pattern of the age, and the dark one shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Yet one shall be born to face the shadow, born once more as he was born before, and shall be born again, time without end. The dragon shall be reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.

Lance 0:54

Welcome to the Siblings Side Quest. My name is Lance. My name is Lee. And this is a podcast where we discuss fantasy books, specifically the Will of Time, in these first, you know, 14 episodes. This time we read book two. Spoiler alert for those of you who have not listened to the first two episodes that we released. This is going to be very spoiler-heavy. We're going to give lots of details about the book. So if you haven't listened or read the book and you want to, well, you should do that before you listen to this episode and then listen to it and discuss it with us. Lance, how many times have you read this series? Over 10 times now. I'm not 100% sure. A lot. We'll just say 10 times. It's been a bit.

Lee 1:31

Lance is our local wheel of time aficionado. He's read this a ton. He is the expert. And I have never read past book three. And now I am going to summarize the great hunt for you.

Lance 1:42

Good luck. This is a huge book.

Lee 1:44

The Horn of Valere has been stolen from Faldara, sending Rand Al Thor, Matt Cauthon, Perrin Abarra, and their allies on a dangerous pursuit across the continent. As Rand struggles with mounting evidence that he can channel and may truly be the Dragon Reborn, the group is drawn toward the port city of Falma, where larger forces are already in motion. Meanwhile, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elaine begin their training in the White Tower of Tarvalin, but soon find themselves entangled in a black Aja plot that leads them into direct conflict with the invading Shanchan, a rigid empire that enslaves women who can channel. All paths converge at Falma, where the horn of Valir is sounded. Legendary heroes ride again, and Rand's confrontation with Baalzamon plays out in the skies above the city, an event witnessed across the world that firmly marks him as the dragon reborn. Very nice. You know what? You did that really quick, especially given how many pages all of that happens over. And that's one of the first things that I want to talk about. So we did our summary of the Eye of the Worlds. The Eye of the World to me felt like a pretty straightforward adventure fantasy. We meet the party, they go on a road trip, there's a quest, we find out something about our main character. It's pretty straightforward. And I want to talk about the experience of reading The Great Hunt versus the experience of reading The Eye of the World. Let's get into it. You've read these books a lot more than I have. I was trying to explain to a good friend this week about what this book felt like to me. And so we were talking about how some books have a physical length, like their actual number of pages. And this is still a very big book. It's around 700 pages, my copy. So it's physically large. But then books also have this spiritual or metaphysical length.

Lance 3:26

Yeah, like the amount of time that they cover or like the scope of what's grasped in the book, you know, how much stuff happens, all of that. Sure. Yeah.

Lee 3:32

Yeah. So yeah, there's the scope of the story, but there's also just the length of time and the amount of work you, as the reader, have to do to get through it. And a really good example of this for me is have you read The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson?

Lance 3:45

Yes.

Lee 3:45

Those books are gigantic. They are all over a thousand pages. I think they're like around 1,200 each, but those are 1,200 plus page books that feel like 600-page novels to read them.

Lance 3:56

That's true. Yeah, they're very easy to get through. Yeah, they're like a slog.

Lee 3:59

Exactly. Their metaphysical length is shorter. And I don't know why, because they're also pretty in-depth character studies. It's not just like full plot all the time. But reading them feels lighter. And reading The Great Hunt for me, this was a 700-page novel that felt like a 2,000-page novel.

Lance 4:15

Oh no.

Lee 4:16

It took me three and a half weeks to read this book, which for me is very weird. I usually sit down and I'll devour something in a weekend. What did you struggle with? I think this the tone shift is the part where I struggled here.

Lance 4:31

Because you're used to that first one that's like, here's a very linear plot, and now we're into this whole world building, or what?

Lee 4:37

Yeah, I think so. Totally. This is a very different book than the first book. Because the first book is a straightforward adventure. This one is like, okay, we're in it now. You understand the prophecy, you understand the significance of this character. Let me introduce you to 100 factions and their various political motivations, all of these different societies and the way that they're structured and elements of magic that you've never encountered before. This book lays it on so thick. And I think it took me so long to get through it, also partially because I was reading it for the podcast. And I knew that I was going to sit down and have a conversation with you about it. So I didn't want to miss anything critical. And the problem with this book is that everything in it felt critical.

Lance 5:16

That's fair. You know what's funny is that's your experience with it. Yeah. And last time we were talking about the books and the one that was to come. And honestly, in my head, I almost skip over that this one even exists because it feels, I know there's a lot of information that's introduced in this one, but it feels so small and so insignificant compared to the next one. Really? And what happens. So when I'm talking about, like in the last one I mentioned, oh, I really like Matt in the next book. You start to see what he's capable of. You sort of do. There's a glimpse in it in this book, but it's not this book. It's book three. Book two is just like a little footnote, and then you're on to book three. So in my head, this is just like a little filler. We get through that super quick and now we're on to the good one, you know. So that's funny that you had a different experience with it.

Lee 5:56

No, that's great to know because for me, it did feel very much like this lore avalanche. It really did feel like suddenly here is all of this stuff that you're gonna have to know to move forward.

Lance 6:08

And we meet the Seanchan in this one. Yes. Yeah.

Lee 6:11

Also, I think it's worth discussing that I have never read a series in this way before. Lance and I have talked about this a lot off of the podcast, but we're reading these books one at a time to make these episodes. Yeah. Because if we read them all at once and then try to sit down to talk about one of them, neither one of us trusts ourselves at all, not to spoil the whole thing.

Lance 6:30

Yeah, that'll bleed into the next one for sure. I have a really hard time with that already, just because I've read them so many times. Sure. So yeah, it's been a struggle.

Lee 6:37

Right. And I think I could keep the plot contained, but I don't think I could keep character information isolated to a book.

Lance 6:42

Yeah, for sure.

Lee 6:43

Um, for me, that would be a real struggle. So I am reading these one at a time as we prepare to record, which I have never done with a series of books before. My normal style is to get into a series, to read every book in that series.

Lance 6:56

Every single one as fast as you can.

Lee 6:57

Yeah, with nothing else in between. I'll devour the entire series. So I think that was part of it too. Getting back into it was a little bit more of a challenge.

Lance 7:05

Because then you don't have like that urgency after finishing the other book to get into the next one.

Lee 7:09

I'm very curious to see how I feel reading the one after this, which is the last one in the series that I've previously read. So I know a little bit about it going in. And I think that also made a difference in reading this one too. I remembered broadly what happened in the Great Hunt. And so there also wasn't any of that urgency of like, I have to find out what happens. I knew the tone shift was a lot, and then just the weightiness of this book felt enormous to me.

Lance 7:34

And it's not a series that you love, because rereading like a series that you love, it's super easy to go through those books again. But where you've already read this one, and it's not like we don't know if this is something that you will love when you get done with it or not. I could see how that could be a problem to get back into it and go through another one.

Lee 7:49

Yeah, it's sorry about that. No, no, no. Don't be sorry. It was a really interesting experience to read this. And so to hear you talk about it is like, oh, this feels like a footnote. It does kind of feel like I have spent a lot of time thinking heavily about stuff that I'm not actually gonna need.

Lance 8:04

I shouldn't say that there's not a lot that you don't need because there is a lot of information in introduced in that one that we will use going forward. Like we talked about the session, they're gonna be a huge part of the books going forward. The collared ones or the leashed ones in this one. Yeah, those that's a huge part of the books going forward, you know. So there's a lot of stuff that happens in this one that we need in future books, but it just this one feels very anti-climmactic compared to future books.

Lee 8:30

Good to know. Reading this book reminded me of why I've never finished the series, because it is so much to take in. However, I will say, so the way that I read this one, I alternated between reading the physical copy and listening to it on audio. And I did that specifically so I would know how the hell to pronounce the words. I love this book, right? So we are going with the audiobook pronunciation just because that is the thing I know. So that's how I'm gonna say everything. If it's wrong, take it up with Michael Cramer and Kate Redding. It's not my fault. Um, who, by the way, are incredible narrators.

Lance 9:02

They do a good job.

Lee 9:02

Amazing props to them. But at the end of the audiobook for The Great Hunt, there is an interview with Robert Jordan. Have you heard this?

Lance 9:09

No.

Lee 9:09

Okay. I listened on Audible at the end of the audiobook version. It's a very short interview, but one of the things that he talks about that I loved was how much he relied on mythology and religion from our world to build the lore of the wheel of time.

Lance 9:25

I definitely can see that. Like just reading the books that you can see that for sure. That's interesting. Yeah, I know this existed.

Lee 9:31

It's really cool. He talks about the fact that this concept of time as a wheel comes from Hindu mythology. He basically pulled little bits and pieces to build out the lore of this world, and that more and more of that comes into play as the series goes on. It's a very short interview, but I loved that. It made me more excited to keep reading. I think the thing that turned me off of this the other times that I have tried it is that it does feel so massive. It feels like such an undertaking that every other time I've previously sat down to read it, I was like, I'm not sure that I'm ready for this kind of commitment at this point in my life.

Lance 10:02

It is a commitment. It really is. It is.

Lee 10:04

And at this point, yeah, we've made a podcast commitment already. So it's cool. I've already committed to the thing before I ever started. So I think that's gonna make it easier to see through. It's gonna be an interesting ride for me because I was reading this one thinking about like, oh yeah, this is why I didn't keep reading. So still, I'm two books in. This has not fully won me over. I'm gonna read the whole thing anyway. But I'm not, I'm not super sure that I'm gonna love it. We'll find out. We'll find out together.

Lance 10:27

Did you agree to disagree?

Lee 10:28

Maybe. We'll see. Maybe it'll win me over. And I will be sure to let everyone know when it does. Let's talk characters first, just like we did in the last one. Characters we loved, hated, or forgot existed. Who are who's your favorite from this?

Lance 10:39

I actually have a question about this before we get into who is our favorite. Sure. Did you foresee in the last book that Padan Fain would be important in this book? I want to know.

Lee 10:48

So I knew that Padan Fain was important. So, but here's the thing. I um Padan Fain is on my list of people that I want to talk about as one of my favorites. Neat. So perfect. Not because he's a good guy, not in that way. It's not like favorite, like, oh, I love Pot on Fane. It's that I love what his character is. His transition is amazing. Yes, right. So I did not realize until this read that Pod on Fane has sort of merged with Mordeath.

Lance 11:15

Yeah.

Lee 11:16

I didn't read that.

Lance 11:18

Separate evil entity from the Dark One or Mordeath, and it's amazing, right?

Lee 11:23

I thought that was so cool because what I remember of him in book one, Pot on Fane is he's a merchant who they discover is a dark friend who is chasing after the boys, and that's kind of what you know about him. Yeah, he gets a real.

Lance 11:35

He almost reminds me of like Gollum following the ring. Like it feels very similar to that at the end of the book, right?

Lee 11:39

Yes, very much so. He's like dirty and unwashed and seems insane and all of this stuff. So I did not realize that when he's in Shatter Logoth, Mordeth, like it talks at some point about Mordeth taking over his soul or something.

Lance 11:54

Yeah.

Lee 11:55

And so now Padan Fain is free of the influence of the Dark One. Yep, which I didn't realize. That's incredible.

Lance 12:02

But he still has a connection to like Rand that the Dark One instilled in him, so he can still chase them, he can still find them, but he's different. He's free. Yes.

Lee 12:11

I didn't remember that detail. I don't know if it even registered with me the first time I read it. I certainly didn't remember it if it did. He does some terrible things in this book where he's like murdering all the dark friends and feeding them to the Trollocs, and you're like, wait a minute, those are the Dark One's people. He doesn't care because he's not the Dark One's person anymore.

Lance 12:29

Exactly. And I think it's amazing that his darkness calls to these dark beings, you know what I mean? Because these are guys who are who initially were attached to the Dark One and his hold is weak or whatever it is because they're in the border towns. You can find whatever reason, but that he is able to almost infect them and claim them as his own is fascinating. That he can command the Murdraw, command the Trollocs, that he murders that Murdrol, you know, that he's capable of doing so when you're badass warriors like Lan. It takes everything that they can to fight one, but he tortures it and kills it for fun. He's crazy, he's a scary guy.

Lee 13:00

I love a villain. I love a good villain character so much. And I will never feel that way about the dark one because he is too much.

Lance 13:09

Yeah. And he keeps getting killed so easy by this little guy.

Lee 13:14

Like his whole personality is I'm an evil guy. Like I'm the evil guy. And that's just not interesting. In the same way that Superman is not interesting as a superhero because his whole thing is being so good, right? Like, yeah, it's equally uninteresting. So Padan Fain is a villain. I love it. He is literally my list of favorite characters. That's awesome. Okay, cool. Well, let's continue on then. But no, I did not anticipate how important he would be. Right. That's a great, that's a great question. Yes.

Lance 13:38

Who else did you love from this book? I really love Min in this book. Yes, me too. She's fantastic. Love her. We meet her in the first book. Moraine has them go to this town. I think it's Baylon. And she's living there and she can see the pattern around people. So Moraine has her look at the boys to kind of see the pattern around them. She is then sent. Moraine has her go to Tarvalon, and Moraine is not there. Anyway, she ends up at Tarvalon with the Ice Sedai. And she becomes a really, really good friend of Egwin, of Elaine. And just like her loyalty in this one at the end, when I mean she could have ran, she could have left. She didn't have to be there. She didn't have to go with them at all. And she does just because that's who she is as a person. She's really nean. I love her in this book.

Lee 14:23

I also love her entire vibe that she's this girl who deliberately wears her hair very short. She refused to wear dresses as a girl who also has very short hair and hates to put on her dress. I really vibe with Min and her whole thing of like, there is not only one right way to be a woman, and I can do it this way if I want to. She's also very funny. I feel like in a lot of scenes, a lot of comic relief, right?

Lance 14:44

Yes, exactly.

Lee 14:45

Like she is the lighthearted character in many scenes, which I really appreciated about her.

Lance 14:50

Me too. Very much enjoy. One of the things that I like in this book is how much she rails against what she knows her future is. Yes. Which we won't get into that because that's spoilers for the next book. But when she's constantly talking about, and I don't even get a choice to love him or whatever it is, you know. I love that. That just her attitude about it is amazing.

Lee 15:06

Yeah. Min is really great. Anyone from this book that you particularly hated?

Lance 15:10

That I particularly hated, I still hate Matt in this book, which is funny because this is the one where I'm like, I start to like Matt. No, it's not. It's the next one. Matt and this one, you know, so we should we should backtrack a little bit. Here's the reason that I hate Matt. At the beginning of this book, Rand is trying to escape the city that they're in, and somebody has ordered all the gates to be closed, so he cannot get out. Matt and Perrin are going to follow him, but Rand has just figured out that he can channel, which in this world, if you can channel, that means that eventually, as a man, you're gonna go insane, you're gonna kill everyone around you. It's just a really, really bad deal. At this point in time, Matt and Perrin do not know that he can channel. So he insults his friends because he knows that if he does not insult them, if he does not hurt them, that they will try and follow him. No matter what he says, even if he's just trying to be self-sacrificing, he knows they will follow him. And at this time, Rand thinks that he's gonna go off alone. He's gonna try to avoid using the power, but likely he won't be able to and he'll die. That's what he's thinking. Yes, right. So he he does insult them, he kind of makes him seem like he's better than they are. And Matt just holds on to that for the whole book, even when it's explained that, like, oh, here's the reason why he's trying to save your life. And Matt's gonna be a little bitch about it the whole time. Yes. I still don't like him in this book. The next one is good, but this one, no, don't like him.

Lee 16:25

He does, you do get that glimpse at the very, very end of the book.

Lance 16:28

When he's riding into battle. Yes.

Lee 16:30

Yeah. Yeah, Matt does.

Lance 16:31

That's when he finally is like, okay.

Lee 16:33

Yes. But yeah, he certainly does hold that against Rand the entire time. He keeps calling him Lord Rand. Lord Rand. Talking about his coats and him putting on airs and how much better he thinks he is. You still have a little bit of whiny feeling sorry for myself, Matt, in this book. That is definitely.

Lance 16:50

He tries to drag Perrin into it, which I don't like. I still love Perrin in this book. He's wonderful, always. Yeah. Perrin is always wonderful throughout the whole series. He's great.

Lee 16:58

It's true. We love Perrin. We stand Perrin in this house. This is now a Perrin Abarra fan cast. We're just gonna talk about how great she's. We love Perrin. There isn't anyone in this book that I particularly hate, although my burning hatred of Nynaeve does carry over.

Lance 17:13

It does continue.

Lee 17:14

She has not proven herself otherwise to me yet. So this is also a Nynaeve Almira hatred cast, if that's a thing. If Nynaeve Almira has no haters, I am dead.

Lance 17:25

Anyone else that you want to discuss? Ooh, Lord Ingtar. What were your thoughts on Lord Ingtar?

Lee 17:32

I want to talk about Lord Ingar. This is one of my bullet points of things in the book that I wanted to discuss. Ingtar is a relatively minor character in the story, kind of. He is one of the lords of Shinar. He is the person who is tasked with finding the horn of Valir after it's been stolen from Faldara. Rand and Matt and Perrin ride out with Ingtar and his soldiers to seek the horn. So they spend this entire book with Ingtar, some of them. Rand has an entirely separate adventure, which we'll talk about. But Matt and Perrin are with Ingtar the whole time. They're chasing down the horn. Ingktar is very obsessed.

Lance 18:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Lee 18:10

Very obsessed. Yes. And it seems like he is obsessed in like a I'm a Shinaran noble. This is so important to us. All we do is fight the dark one and fight the blight. I must find the horn. And it seems like that. And you get to the very end of the book and you have this moment with Ingar. And this for me was the most emotional moment of the entire book. Isn't it though? This was the thing that really got my heart.

Lance 18:33

It's the saddest part of the whole book. And every time I read it, I still feel that way. Every single time.

Lee 18:38

Explain what happens.

Lance 18:39

So we get to the very end of the book, and they are in this city that has been taken over by the Sai Chen. And it is Rand, Heron, or Hirin, and Lord Ingtar. And they are in this alleyway. They're trying to connect to their party, but they're they're blocked. There's a party of the Sai Chen coming down the road. They cannot get through them to get to their party. And Lord Ingtar stops and he looks at this little alley that they're in, and he says, One man could hold an army here for a time. And then he turns to Rand and he tells him, I really was good once, and I've been fighting this fight for so long. And eventually it gets to you the fact that the whole world believes that Trollocs are a myth, that the dark one is a myth, and you fight and die your whole life. And he says, and eventually that gets to you. So basically, he has turned into a dark friend because they have offered him this power that if he does join them, eventually, you know, he'll be able to have the power that he needs to stop this, to stop this war, right? Yes. And that's his goal. So I mean, it is a good goal. His heart was in the right place, sort of. Yes. And it's very understandable why he gets the way that he does. Anyway, he attacks this group and is killed. He dies fighting to protect Rand and Heron. Heron. There we go.

Lee 19:50

There is so much pain in this brief little moment that you spend with Ingtar right there.

Lance 19:56

Yeah, where he's just like hoping that he can be saved and redeemed.

Lee 19:59

He confesses that it is his fault that the horn was stolen. He confesses from the beginning that he let in the dark friends who freed Podan Fane, who took the horn, who ran. So the entire book he's been chasing after these people trying to undo this thing that he did. And he did it deliberately. He was a dark friend. Yes. He did some terrible things to make this happen, has been chasing after the horn, trying to undo it, and he confesses to Rand in the end, which the confession would not have been necessary. The city is under attack.

Lance 20:32

He could have just, yeah.

Lee 20:34

It was not required of him to say any of this. But he does. He tells Rand what he's done.

Lance 20:39

During this moment, you find out at the beginning when Rand is trying to leave this city, all of the gates have been ordered shut. They've been barred and locked. So Rand is unable to leave. And at the time it makes you think that the Amarland seat, who has just arrived in the city, has ordered it to keep Rand from escaping. But actually it was Lord Ingtar who ordered it. He ordered the gates closed. He then has the guards killed on one of the gates to let in the Trollocs, that free patent thane. And he also facilitates the assassin that attempts to kill Rand, but that shot misses, and it ends up clipping the amerlin and killing someone else in the crowd. And he is responsible for that. And he confesses to Rand that he was responsible for almost having Rand killed. And it's because, I mean, in this whole time you think he's Rand's friend, they're buddies, and he tells him, like, you are my friend, and I'm so sorry that I did this. And he's just trying to find redemption. And it's amazing.

Lee 21:31

Yes. I've got the chapter here when he's describing why he's done this. He says, It seemed the only way. We would be destroyed for nothing, defending people who do not even know or care. It seemed logical. Why should we be destroyed for them when we could make our own peace? Better the shadow, I thought, than useless oblivion.

Lance 21:49

I understand his thought process, which is sad, you know.

Lee 21:52

He then he talks about the fact that every man, it's every man's right, Rand, to choose when to sheathe the sword, even one like me. Sheathing the Sword in this case means knowing when it's time to die, when it's time to give your life in defense of something else. The reason that he confesses to Rand is because Rand is so concerned with getting the horn of Valir and he would give it away to save Egwene at this time as captured. Rand is willing to give up the horn to save her. He doesn't care.

Lance 22:17

And Ing Tar doesn't understand.

Lee 22:19

Yeah. And it hits him so hard that he he has this change of heart in this last moment and it and says something at some point about no man has walked in the shadow so long that he can't return to the light, right?

Lance 22:31

Yeah.

Lee 22:32

And Rand confirms that. Rand says to him, he says, Oh, light, Ing Tar. I think, I think wanting to is enough. I think all you have to do is stop being one of them. He's referring to being a dark friend. There are these rights that you say for a lord of Shinar when they die. And Ingtar talks about the fact that no one's going to do that for him. He's a very bad man. He's going to die here in this city of Falma, far away from home. No one's going to speak these rights over him. And so there's this moment. If I can read this without crying, it's going to be a miracle. Because this for me was the most emotional moment of the whole book. I know Ingtar. Rand drew a deep breath. The light shine on you, Lord Ingtar of House Shinoa, and may you shelter in the palm of the creator's hand. He touched Ingtar's shoulder. The last embrace of the mother, welcome you home. Huron gasped. Thank you, Ingtar said softly. Attention seemed to go out of him. For the first time since the night of the Trolloc raid on Thaldara, he stood as he had when Rand first saw him, confident and relaxed, content. And then he dies. He sacrifices himself so that they can get away.

Lance 23:36

Isn't that beautiful? Like it's just so sad and so beautiful all at the same time.

Lee 23:42

I I did not expect that Ingtar was a dark friend.

Lance 23:45

Neither did I. That blew my mind the first time.

Lee 23:47

But that moment in the plot, this is at the very end of the book, and it hits so hard. There are moments throughout this book that really impressed me with Robert Jordan's skill as a writer, and this is one of them. That this relatively minor character has this really hard-hitting emotional moment. And I think it makes a big difference that it's Rand there as well, because Rand is obviously going to be this incredibly important character. And I think it's important that Rand was there to be the person who sort of not offered forgiveness, but acknowledged that you can always have a change of heart. You can always do something different. You can always change your path. And for him to be there to speak these words to Ingtar that mean so much to him, that change the way he feels about himself in the last moments of his life, that really like got me right in the heart.

Lance 24:37

I also love this scene because I feel like it says a lot about life as well. Just the fact that Ingtar didn't have to say anything. He could have just made that decision and they would have thought, like, man, what a great guy Ingtar was to try and save us. But he chose accountability, he chose honesty. He didn't care what they thought of him. I mean, he was worried and he was afraid because he cares about them.

Lee 24:56

Yes.

Lance 24:56

But he knows what he is and he takes accountability for it and he apologizes right at the end, you know? And that's beautiful. Just beautiful to see. And the fact that Rand, like, because he did, he tried to have Rand killed, and Rand's not mad at him. He's like, he was my friend. And in the end, after this whole scene, after that whole battle, after Rand fights the Dark One and again kills him, sort of metaphorically kills him, wounds him. They're having this funeral for Ingtar, and he has the choice of telling people what Ingtar told him. And he, and I can't remember what he says, but he says, No, he is my friend, and that will stay with me. He was a good man, and that's what he keeps with him. And it's like that's beautiful. Yes. I love that.

Lee 25:36

He doesn't tell people what happened, he doesn't smear his name. No, he doesn't Rand goes back to his men at the end of this and doesn't tell them.

Lance 25:44

Yeah.

Lee 25:45

Which he he did.

Lance 25:46

He did. He did.

Lee 25:47

Yeah.

Lance 25:48

And that's what they all aspire to. So everybody just thinks he's amazing. And Rand makes sure that they think that. I think that's so cool.

Lee 25:54

I think it is really beautiful. And I think it's beautiful that Rand himself was in a place mentally to offer forgiveness as well. Because he was directly harmed by what Inktar has done and doesn't hold a grudge.

Lance 26:06

Literally, this whole book is I'm trying to fix this mistake that Inktar made. Yes. And in doing so, we have Egwin, who he cares about deeply, who is in great trouble, who's in this city. But at the same time, like, would she have been there without him? I think she probably still would have ended up there. And if Inktar had not done this, would they have been in a position to assist them? Probably not. So who knows?

Lee 26:24

Yeah, let's talk about Igwane and that whole storyline with Egwene and Elaine and Nynaeve and the Sean Chan. Because this is a very big piece of the book. It is. So at the very beginning, the party splits up. The boys, Rand Matt, and Perrin, go with Ingtar to chase down the horn after it's been stolen by Pot and Fane from Faldara. That's where half the party goes for this book. And then the girls go to Tarvalon to begin their training to be I Sedai. They can all channel, they go to learn magic. Elaine doesn't go there with them. They meet Elaine there. Elaine is the princess from Book One, the daughter heir of Andor.

Lance 26:58

She's already been sent there prior to this.

Lee 26:59

So she was already there. They meet Elaine there. They're just there doing their regular old training and stuff. There are some cool moments like when Nynaeve takes the accepted test, some stuff like that.

Lance 27:09

Nothing real significant, though.

Lee 27:11

Yeah. Just cute little character moments. Except I do need to say for the record, I've been wanting to talk about this the entire time, but it's not enough of a plot point that it's come up. And I just need to say out loud how much the Nynaeve Lan romance is absolute freaking bullshit. Go, girl, give us nothing. Imagine two people barely speaking for 800 pages of a novel and then suddenly being like, I've been in love with you the whole time. Want to get married?

Lance 27:37

That was book one. And then in book two, they don't interact at all. And it's still part of Nynaeve's character.

Lee 27:43

Yes. Garbage. Hate it. Kill me. Okay. So I just I just needed to say that out loud. Agreed. Uh, moving on. They are there doing their Aes Sedai training. That's where we meet Min again. She is also in Tarvalin. She is not training to be an Aes Sedai, but Moraine summoned her there, I guess, because she knew it was important.

Lance 28:00

And Moraine is not even there. I think Moraine probably had a use for Min, and then Moraine is off doing some other undisclosed thing at this time. Yes. We should talk about that a little bit. The reason that Moraine is able to go out and do all of this stuff is because her and the Amarlin are friends. They trained together. They were, they were, what do they call them?

Lee 28:18

Let's take a further step back. The Omarlin seat is the leader of all of the Aes Sedai. And the Omerlin seat is both a title and a person. Yes. So the this woman is the Omerlin seat, but she was previously Moirain's childhood friend.

Lance 28:34

They trained there together. And they were actually the ones who were taking care of the previous Omarlin when she was passing. And this Omarlin had the gift of prophecy. And she is the one who prophesied about the dragon reborn, who said that Rand had been reborn. That's how they knew where to look on the mountain to find him, is because of the prophecy that she gives right when she dies, and states that he's been reborn. And that's right when Rand was being born on Dragon Mount. Oh, okay. In the Isle War. Yep. I missed that completely. So their blue Aja, like each Aja has their own specific thing. Anyway, these two they dedicate their lives to kind of like history, like the Brown, but then also trying to fulfill this prophecy, trying to find Rand and assist it along. So they are both aware that Rand can channel, which normally, if you are a man who can channel, there's something called the red Aja, which hunts you down and kill you, or gentle you, which means cutting off your ability to wield the power. And both of these two have decided to protect him because he is needed for the prophecy for the last battle. But the Amerland does say in one point, if we are discovered, we will be gentled, you know, and that's the least of our problems.

Lee 29:41

Except that it's called stilled for women, gentled for men, stilled for women. Because it's stuck in my head that I was like, why would you need two separate names for the same thing? But whatever, it's fine. The Ajaws are not well explained, I would say. I assume that they get more explained as you go on. Here is how I see them so far. Blue is like world shapers, like their whole thing is like, how do we influence this so things happen in the right way? They kind of reminded me of the Benegesseret in Dune.

Lance 30:08

Yeah, very similar.

Lee 30:09

The red, their whole thing seems to be hating all men.

Lance 30:12

They hate men and they fight, and that's what they do.

Lee 30:14

Okay.

Lance 30:15

Yeah.

Lee 30:15

The brown are bookish little nerds.

Lance 30:18

Yes.

Lee 30:18

Okay. Yellow, green, green loves men.

Lance 30:22

Loves men.

Lee 30:23

Marries men.

Lance 30:24

Marries men. Has multiple warders. Yeah, they're great. Super friendly. Kind of similar to blue. They don't do the same things necessarily, but they're friends. They work together a lot. And then the yellow specializes in healing. That's their thing.

Lee 30:36

I did not know that about the yellow. And then we also have the black, who we meet directly for the first time in this book. Um, yes, the black Aja is considered a myth. The black Aja are the Aye Sedai who followed the dark one. And everyone was like, no, I Sedai followed the dark one. The black Aja isn't real. And then we meet one right at the beginning of the book. This woman named Leandrin, who reveals herself as Black Aja, which is how we end up with Nynaeve and Egwene and Elaine and Min in the right place at the right time to be involved with the Shantan, right? So Leandrin serves the Dark One and is trying to undo the pattern, basically, that would position Rand to fight him. Would you say that's accurate?

Lance 31:16

Accurate, yep.

Lee 31:16

So she's trying to get specifically Egwene and Nynaeve out of the picture. She wants them gone. So she tricks the girls into thinking that they are doing some important Aes Sedai work and they need to go with her.

Lance 31:30

Well, she tells them that Rand is in trouble and that only they can help. And so they have to follow her. And Egwene and Inaeve, because that was their whole thing before, that's why they followed on this journey, was to help protect Rand and the boys. They decide, oh, we better go with her. She wouldn't lie to us, she's Aes Sedai, even if she's a red and they don't like her. And then you have Elaine and Min who listened at a hole in between their rooms and decide to go with them on this journey.

Lee 31:57

Yes. So they come through a portal with Leandrin and are immediately captured by the Shanchan, who we've been hearing about for all of this book. They are invading the land. There are these people who came across the ocean in these weird square-shaped ships and started invading. They're interesting invaders because they do come in and they take over the city. They do violence, they will kill people. But once you take their particular oaths, they just kind of leave you alone.

Lance 32:23

Kind of reminds me of Alexander the Great, where he would take over cities. And if you agreed to follow his set rules, you could still worship the same. You could still run your businesses the same. You just had to agree not to cause trouble, basically. Yes. And yeah, it's very similar to takeover.

Lee 32:35

Yeah, they're a very rigid, structured society. They obviously have very clear rules about what is and is not acceptable behavior. And they're, as far as villains go, they do seem like villains in this piece. They're invading, right? They seem like bad guys. As far as villains go, they are fairly non-threatening, just in their rigidity and their opinions about the people.

Lance 32:56

Like they will kill you, but if you follow their rules, they're gonna leave you alone, right?

Lee 33:01

Unless you are a woman who can channel magic. And then they are going to take you as a slave. They're called Demani.

Lance 33:08

Which is what happens to Igween. She's collared.

Lee 33:11

This was so upsetting to me.

Lance 33:13

Isn't that crazy?

Lee 33:14

The entire way that this was structured. The relationship is that they have the Sul'Dam and the Damane. The Sul 'Dam is a woman who wears, she wears this like bracelet on her wrist, and the Damane is collared, like is literally collared with a metal collar and has a leash that connects her to the Sul'dam's bracelet. And the Sul'dam is then in control of her magic and can control how she wields it, if she's allowed to wield it, can turn her physical sensations against her. It seems like they're basically using their own nerve endings to attack them.

Lance 33:48

Yeah.

Lee 33:48

They're literally enslaved and tortured, absolutely tortured, not physically, like they they don't end up with physical marks. Yes, yes.

Lance 33:59

But there is a scene where you find out that this one particular Sul 'Dam made Egwene feel like she was dipped in a vat of boiling water.

Lee 34:06

Yes.

Lance 34:06

Yeah, and had all her skin melted off. So horrifying.

Lee 34:10

You feel the physical pain of it without experiencing the actual physical act. They can make you feel like you've been whipped without actually whipping you. Yes. So you go on looking perfect, you bear no signs of torture, you just bear the psychological burden of torture.

Lance 34:25

It's worse than torture because, like a whipping, you can only take 50 lashes and then you know you might die, whatever. And in this, they can do it forever.

Lee 34:32

They tell the story about the woman who invented this bracelet collar leash situation for the Shanchan.

Lance 34:41

Wasn't that delightful?

Lee 34:43

Yeah, I mean, it was satisfying in a terrible way. So there's a woman named Deanne who she defected from the Aes Sedai and decided she was going to go serve the descendants of Ardor Hawkwing, which is who you find out the Shanchan are. These are Ardor Hawkwings, the descendants of his armies that he sent across the ocean. Now they're coming back. Yes. So she creates this first device that will allow people to control the Aes Sedai. And that's her whole goal. Because she's defected. Oh, well. That would do it.

Lance 35:18

Yeah. So he hated them, so he tried to kill all of them. Anyway, the the side, however you say it, they feel the same way.

Lee 35:25

So she invents this device. They use it to leash so many Aes Sedai. That's literally what they call it. They call it leashing them and taking control of their magic. And then in the end, she herself is collared.

Lance 35:35

Yeah.

Lee 35:36

They take away her agency. They take away her power.

Lance 35:38

There's no greater scream in the tower than when she herself was collared.

Lee 35:41

Yes. It says, but of course, she too was Marath Demane, which is what they call it. And they cannot be allowed to run free. So she used her magic to build this thing, and then they turned it against her because she was magic. And they were like, You have magic too. Why would you think that you'd be the exception? Which is poetic justice.

Lance 35:56

It is poetic justice.

Lee 35:58

She does deserve it for unleashing this evil on the world. 100%. When you unleash great evil on the world, it is to some degree only fair that that comes back for you. There must be a price. That's what Yangtar says in the end. There must be a price for the things that you do. So Egwene is captured. She is.

Lance 36:15

The other two get away. Nynaeve is able to channel and starts throwing lightning around, and they're able to escape in all of that mess.

Lee 36:22

Yes.

Lance 36:22

But Min is captured.

Lee 36:24

Yes. But Min does not channel. She has this weird seer ability, but she doesn't channel. So she is not collared and she is allowed to visit Egwene. But Egwene is a literal slave who is tortured by these other women. She is put through absolute hell in the time that she is in their possession. She is treated as less than human. It is, it's appalling. This was so upsetting to read and to imagine. Because Egwene, at this point, she was the daughter of the mayor in her town. So she's used to being at least a relatively important person as far as small towns go.

Lance 36:58

She was training as the wisdom. So she was going to have some sort of power that way as well. Yes.

Lee 37:02

Then she finds out she can channel. Now she's going to be an Aes Sedai, who are the most important, powerful women in the world. This is a girl who it's not that she's never had hardship necessarily, but certainly has had a fairly privileged life up to this point, right? Has been through some things, but is used to being loved and cared for and having some degree of power, and now has had all of that robbed from her. There is this moment where she's rescued Nynaeve and Elaine and Min put together a plot to get her out, and they succeed. And they, in the process, discover that these Soul Dom, these women who were wearing the bracelets, they also can channel.

Lance 37:38

That's how they use them.

Lee 37:39

Correct. So they collar her Sul 'Dam, the person who had been controlling her, they collar her. And Egwene lashes out. I think she hits her with a pitcher at one point.

Lance 37:51

Yes.

Lee 37:52

She puts the collar on her, she puts the bracelet on her own wrist and then uses it to torture this woman. It's wild to see Egwene break like that. Because she has been, up to this point, honestly, kind of a nothing character.

Lance 38:06

Yeah, very calm, very anti-violence, nothing.

Lee 38:08

Egwene's whole shtick up until this point, like is the whole thing. Yeah, has been like, she's Rand's childhood sweetheart. They've been promised since they were young. And she's, I mean, she's so unremarkable that we barely mentioned her in book one. Yeah. She's sort of a nothing. She's gonna train to be an I Sedai. She doesn't really matter that much. Watching this break and understanding why, Nynaeve is horrified as she watches Egwene do this, as she watches how much this woman is suffering. Nynaeve is like, Egwene, stop, stop, stop, stop, Egwene, stop.

Lance 38:36

Yeah.

Lee 38:36

And as a reader, I was watching this happen and was like, I a hundred percent understand exactly why you right?

Lance 38:42

Like, let her cook, let her do it. That's what I was hoping for. But here we are.

Lee 38:45

Yeah. And yes, torturing anyone like that is wrong and bad, and you shouldn't. And the fact that something bad has happened to you does not really give you license to make bad things happen to others. That's however, having witnessed what Egwene has been through, you completely understand why she has that break. And it's just like, you're gonna suffer the way that I suffered. Yeah. And even then, it's not a tenth of what Egwene has been through because she tortures this woman for a few minutes.

Lance 39:12

And it's been like weeks of this for Egwene at this point.

Lee 39:15

Yes. So they are able to get free. We find out at the very end of the book that they have gone back to Tarvalon to resume their training because they do have to learn how to channel this magic. They can't just be left to their own devices.

Lance 39:27

But Egwene does get a lot of training while she is there because she's as they're escaping, they come out and there's a platoon of soldiers in the street. And Egwene is so on edge and terrified that she attacks them and kills a bunch of them with the stuff that they taught her. One of the things of Aesodai is that they're not allowed to use the power to cause harm, and she immediately breaks that rule and kills a bunch of them. So yeah, kind of crazy.

Lee 39:51

But you understand why you do. It does make sense. It does make sense. Okay, let's take a minute here to step back a little bit and talk about chapter 37, which is the portal stone flicker-flicker chapter.

Lance 40:02

Oh, yeah. We'll introduce you to the portal stones. There is a period in which Ran falls asleep by the stone. He, Loyal, and Huron are sleeping by the stone, and he uses his power in his dream because he's still having dreams on the Dark One. And in doing so, transports himself and Loyal and Huron to another world that is a shadow of this one. They talk about the fact that it doesn't seem fully real, that distances are not the same, different things like that. And it is a it's almost like multi-universe theory. This is a world that could have been or was in one point, but that is not the strongest one. It's a different branch of reality, basically. And they are able to transport themselves back. But in doing so, they do find out that you can transport yourself great distances by going into these different planes. And so they have a period where they need to get to an area called Tomen Head, and they decide that Rand is going to take them to this other world where they are going to travel because they will be able to travel much quicker so they can get to Tomen Head to meet Patent, who still has the horn of a lair and the dagger that Matt needs, as he is dying without it. So that's the plan. That's why he's trying to use the stone.

Lee 41:08

Yes. So he's with Varen at this point, another Aes Sedai of the brown Ajaw that we meet. She has come to meet them kind of of her own volition. She's just decided she wants to. She's going to learn the story. Yeah. Yeah, she wants to. Part of history. Exactly. So she meets up with them. She knows who Rand is as well, knows that he can channel, knows that he is the dragon reborn. Rand at this point is still firmly denying that he is the dragon reborn. He does not want to be. Varon knows who he is. So Varon knows that they're going to this portal stone so that Rand can use his magic to transport them. She knows she is not powerful enough to do it. She knows that he is. So they get to this portal stone with the intention of using it to travel to Tomen Head. And when Rand starts to use his power on this stone, something very weird happens. Everyone in the party starts experiencing this flicker effect where they start flashing into other lives that they could have had.

Lance 42:01

Living and dying thousands of lives.

Lee 42:03

Yes. Similar to these shadow worlds that are other possibilities of worlds that could have existed, some closer to actual reality, some further from. They're experiencing this with their lives. So Rand himself has these moments where he flickers into other lives. Sometimes he's a soldier. Sometimes he is married to Egwene and living out his life in the two rivers as he intended to do. In every version of this life, he does seem to be able to channel and is how to channel at some point. Feeling the effects of that channeling on his deterioration physically and mentally, all of these kinds of things. But he starts flickering in and out of these different lives. It uses the word flicker to describe what's happening. And you see just these small snippets of his life playing out. And in basically every one of them, Rand is pitted against the dark one. And it ends with a dark one saying, I win again, basically. What does he say? Actually, is that what he says? Yes. The chapter itself is beautiful and gripping and lovely to read. And you have this moment when it starts that you're like, What is happening? I don't get this.

Lance 43:10

Do you remember when it comes back and Intar says, I walk in the light? He's all panicked. And it's because he's a dark friend in most of those worlds.

Lee 43:17

Yes. He talks about that right before he dies. That as he was experiencing these other lives, that in some of them he was a good man, and in a lot, he wasn't. Afterward, Rand is describing what happened. He says to Varen, Varen, I lived and died. I don't know how many times. Every time it was different, but it was me. It was me. It's a crazy chapter. It's really interesting. We talked in book one about the introduction of the ways. Yes. The way that this unlocked the possibility of fast travel through the ways. They do attempt to use the ways to travel in this book, and Ma Chin Chin is there waiting for them, which is pretty weird because everyone is like, You can't command Machin Chin. It very much seems to have been commanded.

Lance 44:00

And follows them, Ma Shin Chin gets him and he taints it. So now it's his pet, basically. Yeah. Isn't that wild? So it serves him.

Lee 44:10

Oh, I did not know that. Yeah. I did not get that.

Lance 44:12

That's why it blocks them in every turn. That's amazing. Crazy, huh?

Lee 44:17

That is amazing. That's so cool.

Lance 44:19

And that's part of why it can almost leave in that one scene where it's trying to leave the way is because of him and its encounter with him. So yeah, it's made this horrible thing even worse, which is super cool, right? Yeah.

Lee 44:30

I love that that's happened.

Lance 44:31

Yeah, very good.

Lee 44:32

Okay, really, really cool. I did not realize that was what was going on with that. So this is cool that it's unlocked another way to fast travel. And now we have a multiverse in a way that is pretty interesting.

Lance 44:44

It is interesting. Yeah.

Lee 44:46

One of the things that I thought was interesting is that when Rand accidentally transports them to this other world, there are no people there except for one woman that they encounter who we find out a lot about later. We'll come back to her.

Lance 44:59

Yeah, she's a whole problem.

Lee 45:01

When Rand transports them to this other world, there aren't any people, but there are these creatures. They're like scary toad things. They call them Grom.

Lance 45:08

Yeah, Grom.

Lee 45:10

And then at the very end of the book, when they're in Falma, the Shan Chan has these weird beasts that no one's seen before. Yes. And Rand sees them, Rand and Hieron see them, and they recognize them as Grom from this other world. So that opens questions for me about how else the multiverse is going to impact this series. I feel trepidation about that because I do not love a multiverse story. I like a single universe with a single set of possibilities, generally speaking. So the multiverse is pretty interesting. Curious to see where that goes and how that plays out. I loved that flicker-flicker chapter.

Lance 45:45

We should just talk about that while we're here. Well, in this other world, they meet someone, this woman, her name is Celine, and they say that she is the most beautiful woman they've ever encountered. She plays, I wouldn't say a significant role, but she does seem to have this control over Rand that he wants to please her. Every man around her wants to do what she wants them to do. Yes. And she she will pop in randomly and she'll be there, then all of a sudden she vanishes and she's gone. No one can find her. We find out later on in the book that she is actually Lanfear, who is one of the Forsaken.

Lee 46:14

Yes.

Lance 46:14

Yeah, and that she and Luz Theron were an item before he left her for his wife, whose name I can't remember right now, who he ends up killing in the end. She was trapped with the Dark One in this prison, and she has decided that she will claim Rand, basically, in this book, that she'll take him.

Lee 46:31

Yes. She's an interesting character because she wants Rand to get the horn. She wants him to blow the horn. She keeps talking about the glory of it. That yes, that Rand should be chasing this glory and this power. And Rand is wildly uninterested.

Lance 46:45

He's like, I don't want that. I don't want anything about that.

Lee 46:47

Rand spends this entire book trying to get away from anything resembling responsibility, glory, power. He is expecting to lose his mind because he can channel. His only goal is to get as far away from everybody else as possible. So he's not endangering other people. The last thing in the world he wants is to be important, which is very true to character from the very unassuming little farm boy that we meet in book one, whose only goal is to go home and go back to work on his dad's farm.

Lance 47:14

Yes.

Lee 47:14

Well, that's not going to work out for him. So now his goal is to live his life alone. And that is not going to work because of how this book ends. Let's talk about the ending because it's fantastic. Everybody is in Falma on Tome and Head. They do make it there via the portal stone after the flicker flicker. A lot of time has passed. Four months. Yes.

Lance 47:32

And Rand, instead of going to this world where they have to travel, he teleports the entire party because he is that powerful, which he was not supposed to do. He does not have control of his power, so he did not intend to. But in doing so, four months have passed. So it was instantaneous for them. But in the real world, four months have gone by.

Lee 47:51

So they arrive at Tomen Head, they go to the city of Falma, which is where the Shonchan have taken over. It's where Egwene is being kept prisoner. It is also where Pot on Fane has brought the Horn of the Lear and the Dagger. They have to get the dagger back to save Matt, and they need to retrieve the Horn of the Leer. They are able to do it. They sneak into the city, they kill the Shan Chan High Lord who has the Horn of the Lear.

Lance 48:12

Yes. He is also a blade master, and Ren is able to murder him, which is amazing. Love that scene.

Lee 48:18

That fight scene is really good.

Lance 48:20

I like how his servants don't interfere at all. They just fight and then he kills them and they just stay down.

Lee 48:24

Yes, which is a good illustration of the rigidness of this society.

Lance 48:27

Oh, absolutely.

Lee 48:28

The rules are ironclad and you do not go against them for any reason. Anyone at any level of this hierarchy. Uh is a really good fight scene. Rand kills him. They are able to retrieve the horn and the dagger. Ingtar sacrifices himself to get them out of the city. But there are now these armies converging.

Lance 48:48

The white cloaks have been pushing into Tomenhead this entire time, right? We kind of skip this part at the beginning of the book. In the beginning of the book, there is a scene where there are all these people who are summoned in their dreams into this audience chamber where they see the dark one and he gives them all individual orders. Well, you find out one of the men that he's giving orders to is named Boers, and he's a questioner for the White Cloaks, and he has ordered this man, this general of the White Cloaks army, whose name I can't remember. He's actually a nice guy, and I'm sad he dies.

Lee 49:17

Bornald.

Lance 49:18

I wouldn't say he's a nice guy. Yeah, Jeffram. There we go. Anyway, he commands Jeffram to push in with his 2,000 men. They do get there, but they're run down, and then they fight the Sai Chen and get crushed, basically. But this battle is about to happen between the White Cloaks and the Sai Chen, and they have the horn, and they know that Agween and Nynaeve are down in the city. They're not, they don't know anything about Elaine and whatnot at this point.

Lee 49:41

Yes.

Lance 49:42

Um, but Matt decides, well, there's nothing that says that we can't blow the horn twice, right? It just says that it has to be there at the end. So he blows the horn and the heroes are summoned.

Lee 49:51

All of these great heroes of legend, including Ardor Hawkwing, who shows up to fight against his own descendants.

Lance 49:56

His own descendants.

Lee 49:57

All of these people from Legend, you get just these little snippets of their legend when they arrive. There's this woman named Bergit who seems really awesome. And so all of these long-dead heroes show up to ride in this battle when the horn of Valir is blown, which is amazing.

Lance 50:13

But because Matt has sounded this, the horn is attached to him and him alone as long as he is alive. It will sound for no other. And one of the things that it says about the man who sounds the horn, he cannot do it with a lust for power or something like that in his heart. It has to be just out of a pure need. And that's why he does it. So we know that Matt's intentions are pure at this point.

Lee 50:32

Yes. So there's now there's this massive battle happening. It's the Shonchan versus the White Cloaks versus these long-dead heroes in this big battle. But there is another battle that happens at the same time. Rand is facing off against Baalzamon.

Lance 50:47

Baalzimon. Describe this fight for me. This fight is, man, it's so hectic. So he rides into battle, and then all of a sudden, we are in the sky. We are in the clouds. He is looking down at the fight scene beneath him, and he and Baalzamon are fighting in the sky. There's a lot that happens in this fight scene, but one thing that Rand does say to him is that, because he keeps telling Rand, there's no point in fighting. You know, I've won you over in a thousand lifetimes in a thousand different ways, and you always serve me. And Rand tells him, I've seen a thousand lives, I've lived a thousand times, and I've never served you. I've never joined you. And at that point, Rand knows that he is incapable of defeating him in a battle, and so he sheaths the sword, which is the same thing that Intar did, and he takes a blow from Baalzamon in the stomach, and in doing so, he is able to attack him and kill him and win the battle. But he does take a massive wound in his stomach and falls to the ground at that point.

Lee 51:45

It's pretty interesting because from Rand's point of view, are they fighting in the sky?

Lance 51:50

Maybe not in the sky. It's like in the clouds, but he can see the battle going on below him.

Lee 51:56

He's super aware of everything that's happening the whole time. And in the end, when he decides to sheathe the sword to take this blow so that he can land a blow of his own, he decides that because he's watching Arter Hawking fight his way through the city and he's watching this battle play out and is trying to give everybody enough time for the battle to progress. So he, even as he is directly engaged in combat with the Dark One, is very much keeping an eye on this entire situation and is orchestrating it and doing his best to influence the outcome of this major battle.

Lance 52:25

Yes.

Lee 52:26

I I feel like he got stabbed expecting that he would be dead.

Lance 52:29

Oh, he fully expects to die, I believe.

Lee 52:31

And then he wakes up. Uh he wakes up and Min is with him.

Lance 52:34

Min finds him and she describes him as being near frozen in a garden. So she drags him into a house and tries to save his life.

Lee 52:41

Lanfear shows up, which is when we find out that Celine is Lanfear, that she is one of the Forsaken, which is makes a lot of sense, honestly, for the way that she has acted up to that point. But also is like, oh great, more of these guys are out of their prison. That seems like bad news. So Rand survives, and then it's after he wakes back up that he finds out how this battle played out in everyone else's view. That everyone saw this conflict between Rand and the Dark One, saw it as though it was happening right in front of them.

Lance 53:15

Yes.

Lee 53:16

It's not super clear to me, I suppose, whether that was the prophecy at work, whether that was Aes Sedai manipulation at work, because the whole time they've been trying to force Rand down a specific path and into a certain role. And it certainly would serve Moraine's purposes for this battle to have been blasted to everyone, like projected in a way that they could all see.

Lance 53:36

No, it's part of the pattern, actually.

Lee 53:38

Okay. Fair. Yeah. Fair. I wondered if it was.

Lance 53:40

If this was like it's like a sign of his coming, basically. Okay.

Lee 53:43

So prophecy at work. Yep. This is what's happening. They ride into battle with the banner of the dragon. Everyone watched Rand fight Baalzimon. And now there is no way to deny who he is.

Lance 53:55

And at the end, Messima, who hates him, he's a Faldaran sort soldier who has hated Rand this whole time. He is devoutly devoted to Rand at this point. And all of the soldiers who are with him, all of Ink Tar's guys, swear their fealty to him and say that they will serve him. They become the people of the dragon.

Lee 54:11

Yes. And so now, despite Rand hoping for literally anything else, he is undeniably the dragon reborn and has accidentally started assembling his army.

Lance 54:24

Yes.

Lee 54:26

So that's where it ends. Yeah, it's very interesting because Rand this whole time has been trying to run away from expectations, has been trying to avoid getting embroiled in any I Sid I plots, has been trying to act really independently. His entire motivation has been not to become anyone important. And just by being a good person who tries to do the right thing and isn't willing to let his friend suffer and die, is trying to manipulate the battle to the best possible outcome, is trying to fight back against the dark one, which obviously you fight against evil.

Lance 55:00

Yeah.

Lee 55:01

Is now in this situation where he's been publicly outed as the dragon reborn. There's no denying it, there's no turning back. It's exactly what he didn't want.

Lance 55:10

Yeah. I mean they talk about the likenesses of his face that are already in towns that are drawn perfectly from the battles that people witness in the sky. So he is known and it's over for him at that point. There's no going back to being a farmer.

Lee 55:22

Yes. So you can see what I mean about the massive tonal shift of this book. We didn't even get into so much of it. A couple of little small things, we find out that Tom Marilyn isn't dead in this one.

Lance 55:31

Yeah, which is the first one.

Lee 55:32

Which is why probably why in the first one we didn't give much time to the fact that Tom Marilyn died. We had both read this book and we knew he was coming back around. They spend a lot of time in Kyrian. Kyrian reminded me of did you play Dragon Age Inquisition?

Lance 55:45

Yes. Yes.

Lee 55:45

You know the Orlesians?

Lance 55:47

Yeah.

Lee 55:47

The great game and the politicking. Kyrian reminded me a lot of the Court of Orlay in Dragon Age Inquisition, which is a very nerdy reference. But if you're listening to this podcast, you two are probably a nerd.

Lance 55:58

Probably. And you've hopefully played that game. And if you haven't, go play it and you'll understand what we mean.

Lee 56:02

Yes. So the Great Hunt, it's a lot. It's a lot of book. It's a lot of plot. It's a lot of political maneuvering. It is a lot of manipulation. It's a lot of Rand running from his fate. And now he can't. Yeah. And that's where we are as we head into booklets.

Lance 56:19

This is a real, like, I feel like this book is the real first step to okay, I'm fulfilling parts of this prophecy now. You know what I mean? He's been shown. He's fulfilled this whole first section of what the Armeln prophesied, and now he's gotta do it.

Lee 56:34

Let's take a complete sidestep into one of my favorite segments of this podcast and talk about what else we're reading. This is where we tell you about the books that we're reading that are not The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. Lance, go first. Tell me about one thing you've read lately.

Lance 56:50

So the book that I just finished reading was recommended to us by our cousin Cody, actually. He reached out because we were doing this podcast and he's like, hey, I'm gonna read along with it. And then he told me about this book that he had just finished. The book is called The Devils. If you have not read it, I would recommend listening to it on audio because the narrator is fantastic.

Lee 57:08

Is this Joe Abercrombie?

Lance 57:10

It is. Okay. Amazing, absolutely incredible. So this is a fantasy novel, but it is based in reality in that it's our world, but mixed with different things. For example, like in this book, the Pope is a woman, and she's actually the second coming of the savior. So, like it's not God's son, it's God's daughter in this book. Different things like that. The whole plot line is that there's a woman named Alexia who she was the crown princess of a kingdom called Troy, and her mother was killed. And Alexia ends up on the streets, been living her whole life as a thief. And the whole book is about them trying to get her to Troy to claim her birthright. But she travels with a group of devils because sometimes, in order to kill a devil, you have to have a devil, right? There's a woman named Vega, they call her a proper Norse werewolf. She's horrifying, she's amazing. There's an elf, there's a magician who's a necromancer, there's a vampire, just this whole party of people that she has to travel with. And the book is about them making this journey to Troy. So if you have not read the book, I would recommend it. It is wild. The way that they describe a werewolf in this book is the best thing that I've maybe ever read. It's amazing. Cool. Ten of ten would recommend.

Lee 58:19

Joe Abercrombie is the king of grim-dark fantasy.

Lance 58:22

Oh, it's grim and dark and it's beautiful.

Lee 58:24

That's awesome. Thank you for the recommendation, Cody. Man, I'm gonna sound a lot dumber after that recommendation from you. The only thing that I have read in the last month, other than The Great Hunt, because as I mentioned, it took me a really long time to get through it, was a very weird, queer romance novel. I watched a TikTok video called The Weirdest Spicy Books I've Ever Read. And so I read one because I needed a palette cleanser. I needed something that was as unlike what I had just read as humanly possible. And boy, did I find it. I read Doppelbanger by W. H. Lockhart. This is a sci-fi MM romance. It follows our main character, August Blackthorne, who at the beginning is being stalked. Okay. He knows that he has a stalker. It turns out his stalker is August Blackthorne from another universe. He is a quantum physicist who has accidentally ripped a hole in reality and is now traveling through the multiverse trying to undo the thing that he's done.

Lance 59:26

Okay.

Lee 59:26

So he has come to find himself to see if the two of them can work together to fix this disaster that he's caused. And of course, they fall in love.

Lance 59:36

You gotta be kidding me.

Lee 59:37

Nope. Nope. That is literally the book. Wow. It is surprisingly ploty. There's a lot of actual sci-fi multiverse plot that is happening, but there is also a lot of a man banging himself, kind of in a weird multiverse way. Cannot in good conscience recommend this. I would not say that this was a good book. It was the palette cleanser that I was looking for because my goodness, nothing could be more different from the Great Hunt than Doppelbanger. If anything about that sounds appealing to you, you can check it out. It's on Kindle Unlimited. It's a it's a wild ride.

Lance 1:00:15

There you go.

Lee 1:00:16

I'm not, I'm not proud of what I've done here today. I'd just like to say, I am not proud of what I've contributed here today. Sounds interesting. Very outside of my normal wheelhouse. Now you know. Love it. I'm just old, everyone on the internet. Sorry, mom. Thank you so much for listening to our show, everyone. That was our recap of The Great Hunt. This book is huge. We know that we didn't get through even a tenth of what was on offer in this plot. But hopefully we've hit the major points and hopefully you were able to follow along with this varied and far-reaching discussion. We appreciate you joining us for this conversation. If you want to send us your comments, where can they do that, Lance?

Lance 1:00:58

They can do it on Instagram, Facebook. Um, is there other places? We are not on Facebook. We're on Instagram and Threads. Oh, Instagram and Threads. That's right. I knew that it's the social media platforms that I'm not good at. You can send us messages there and we will respond to them. If you have suggestions, stuff that you would like us to hit for the next book, any ideas that you might have or things that you want to discuss that you want us to make sure that we mention when we record the next episode, we release one every month. So if you want to read ahead and then message us those, you totally can. We'd love to talk about it. So get on there and send us some messages.

Lee 1:01:30

You can look forward to our next episode where we will be discussing the Dragon Reborn book three of the Wheel of Time. And that will be released on April 20th. So you've got plenty of time to read along with us. Find our podcast wherever you find podcasts. Now available wherever podcasts are sold. Thanks so much for listening. We'll catch you in the next one.